Druids

[Dragoth]

Thats right, i want to discuss the druid class. Alot of people on this mud seem to think that druid is a very powerful and unbalanced classo, second opinion is very true, first one isnt really so.
Now i havent been playing higher level druids, but i did play it through all the newbie levels till 2x40.
Now im not going to talk about abilities of the forms, its a different story, what really bothers me is the Normal characters powers (ac, spells, skills, damage) versus shapeshifted characters powers.
Now there are 19 forms, forms starts with a ferret with a single attack and +9ac and at a single 40 you can shift into a wurm with 4x extremely hard attacks and -7ac, at 2x40 you can shift into a naga which has -8ac and 4x massacre/extreme attacks, and at 3x40 you shift into a dragon which has 4x massacre attacks and -9ac. Now you can presumably get shapeshiftable +stat eq to raise your stats when you are shifted - but there is almost none, you can presumably get ARMOR equipment - but again, there is not enough eq even to get you an extra -1ac point, now this is understandable because if there was - people with dragon form would be running -11ac at 3x40 with iron skin, immortals obviously dont want that. But herein lies the question - should low level forms be capped because high level forms will become stronger if there is alot of +stat and armor shapeshiftable equipment.
Now let me give you an example of how stupidly everything is oraginised
Dragon -9ac (3x40), Naga -8ac (2x40), Wurm -7ac(1x40), Wyvern -6ac (36), Roc -5ac (34), Croc -4ac (32), Elephant -3ac (30), Griffon -2ac (28), Cobra -1ac (24) Sealion 0ac (22), Hawk +1ac (20)
Now, at level 20, a warrior prime can actually be running -7ac!!! while druid in his form is actually running +1ac with 2 extreme attacks - and there is absolutely nothing to change it!!!!!! Of course a druid with relatively good stats and say being warrior second can be running -7ac and doing much more damage w/o ever using shapeshift untill level 38 when he gets wurm form, but at level 38 a warrior prime is already at -9ac if not -10 with iron skin. Of course having a dragon form at 3x40 is nice, but how about lowbie druids? Are we not to use shapeshift at all?
I have no clue why was it done this way, was it done to balance something else, or was it just never thought about,but the solution looks pretty simple to me. Since ac and damage and probably everything else is stat dependant while you are shifted, why not make a whole new bunch of +stat eq and make a stat cap of 18 on all the forms, so even a lowbie with a hawk form would have a chance to get nice AC with enough equipment to raise his dexterity from 14 to 18 and would have a chance to get somewhat decent AC, or to get a decent damage get a lot of str eq?

[HelxenKitamelorif]

Did you hear about enter button, which used to separate paragraphs?

[Dragoth]

Maybe if you bothered to actually read the statement instead of looking how paragraphs are separated you would come up with a much more useful answer helxen.

[Eternity2]

I made a druid once and stopped playing it for that very reason. I thought make a druid/monk combo would be nice at higher levels with the flurry/strike etc etc monk skills at my disposal... but really....it seems the only druid's worth playing are when you get the much,much higher levels.. and nothing in the meantime to make the wait worthwhile.

[Methyx]

Just a few questions and commnets:

1. Based on Dragoth's post, is the dragon form only available to those who are either Druid primes or secondaries?

2. If I understand Eternity2's post correctly, other class skill such as strike, flurry, hide, sneak, etc. can be used while in a shifted form? If that's the case, a druid with a well chosen classo and good natural stats would have a VERY formidable shifted form at higher levels.

3. I've looked at the eq list on the website and commented about the large number of items for those who have all 4 of the original classes in their classo. I've seen several posts from our imms assuring us that new eq for the newer classes is being developed and will be implemented soon. From what I've seen so far, Sloth has a very good team of imms, and those who have taken the time to develop a high level druid character will have a lot to look forward to when the new eq comes out. At least, that's my humble opinion...take it with a grain of salt folks

[Ender]

Well, I have a suggestion that could at least speed up the balancing process a little. We do have all this 'holy' eq... It's given to us by the gods. Why not make some of it +shiftable? Or create some new 'holy' equipment that is. Cloaks, robes and belts (girths) come to mind fairly quickly. Or perhaps this has already be done? There should be some +shiftable holy equip one way or the other, and you can only wear one piece at a time. So even though this isn't a fix all solution, it's not overweighted and it probably needs to be done anyway.

In the direction of sticking my foot in my mouth, can the druids out there tell me how much of the holy eq is currently shiftable?

[Hotara]

Simple Answer.... Stop whinning.


Think of the following....

The mud has many classes, and as you create a character, it requests that you think wisely before choosing... and therefore, when you choose 4 certain classorders, you're sacrificing something, you can't have everything, just live with it.

You're a druid, that's a choice you made, so you shall live by it, don't whine to me you don't have ac, you're a druid, not a warrior, as you mentioned, maybe you can get better ac as a druid/wa, so do that, different people have different play style, you can't max everything out, the game has many choices, which is what makes the game interesting.


The reason why i personally dislike any of the new classes is simply to the fact that any 4x caster nowadays can get -11, or hell, almost as much, if not more, then warriors themselves... which is kind of silly, given the fact that 4x casters are meant to be magically strong, and physically crunchy.... The whole shapeshifting deal is funky, and to add even more power, all them ancient shifting rubbish, and of course, it's all silly in my opinion...


So as a druid, let me briefly say what you are getting...

You may get max ac.....
You have superb regen {So stop whinning already}
You have awesome spells

So now, again, stop whinning and play already. You guys are over powered, i don't know what coders were thinking when they let 4x casters get max ac like this.... Oh hell, if anything, I say, INCREASE amount of mana it eats while shifted, so total shiftable time is decreased, and when that happens, give them the ac they want....


P.S. Don't say 'Don't the coders want us to use shapeshift anymore?' Cause you darn well know the only reason you can solo well is because of that spell.

[Ender]

I agree with Hotara on some points, but not others. Shifters have several problems at the moment. On the other hand, they have several advantages.

Advantage:
Probably the biggest and most noticable. Only ones who can show up naked at the west gate and go on their own corpse retrieval with relatively little assistance.... at higher levels.

Disadvantages:
Very little equipment. Tough to get to high levels. Once these levels are achieved, it's like opening up the wrath of god.

The FIRST thing that came to mind when I was looking at the list of shits is that it seems to be way too open. It literally runs the entire gambit of possible AC. It would seem the best way to even out this class would be to adjust the critters you shift into. Instead of going from +9 to -8, why not narrow it down a little? Especially if we're going to start creating +shiftable armor.

Hotara does have an excellent point. Giving someone near max AC naked is kinda silly. No offense to the druids, but it is. However, I think the shifts can be reworked to make this more manageable. For instance, a weasel (I think that was the first shift, might have been a ferret) has EXCELLENT dex. Why not start at +6 AC and call it a dex adjustment? This is at least a little AC for newbies to get started with. Next, is it really necessary to get to -8 for a mage class? How about stopping at -2/-3? With some +shiftable eq it should be possible to get to -6/-7. Not great, but they ARE mages. You could create a druid prime shift that gets down to -4/-5, for a total of -8/-9 with +shiftable eq.

I think this would help solve the problem of druids feeling too weak to start and everyone else feeling they are too powerful at high levels. It would also leave room for +shiftable eq without completely overpowering the class.

As always, comments are welcome.

[Avatar]

I don't think there's currently enough shift items to even get you a -1.0 extra AC. Maybe something new was introduced lately that I missed.

[Ender]

I don't think there is either. We need more for certain. I think a good deal of the existing equipment could be made shiftable however. For instance, most of the equipment in the gnoll encampment is hide, leather, organic, etc. Not great eq, but at least it's something that could shift at low levels. I don't know what the rules concerning shiftable eq are, but it seems logical that it would be animal-based. That would make most leather eq and even some high level equipment like the Red Dragon Scale Sleeves or Thick Leather Arm Bands or perhaps a Crafted Durs-Hide Shirt open as possible eq...

Are there any existing guidelines on what should and shouldn't be able to shift?

[Weasel]

I don't play Druid classo at all, but would it make sense to have shiftable eq only shiftable if you take on a particular form?
for example, you could only wear a shiftable dog collar if you took on the form of a dog, or you could only wear those Red Dragon Scale Sleeves if you were shifted into the form of a dragon... catch my drift?

..although that's probably too much pissing about, and I guess you'd have to carry a heap of excess eq in that case.. hmm. just a passing thought.

[Elwood]

I play a Druid, Mullah. We don't need any help being rebalanced..it's cool.
Dragoth should know better, and been a DR prime.

If you look at the eq list you can see that -1.0 ac is achievable one way or another.

That will be all
Mullah

[Zeizel]

I just want to point out that Druids are not a caster class when shifted. We don't get to cast any of our spells while shifted, so we're less of a caster then a Wa/Mo/Th/Ma (at least they _could_ be casting fireball, etc).

That said, I think arbitrarily narrowing the AC is kind of silly. A ferret, if you think about it, would be harder to hit then a dragon. So give the ferret high AC. On the other hand, I could be scratched by a ferret all day, and still able to walk away (admittedly sore), so make it even weaker then it is.

I think the great thing about the concept of shapeshift is it opens up a whole new world of creative play-style for Druids. As ferrets, we can peek at inventories and steal (both great for CR). But that's where the creativity stops.

At lvl 20, I _never_ shifted into anything except Hawk/Asp/Ferret. That leaves about 6 or 7 forms completely unused. I think if the forms were re-evaluated, the Druid could become an even more interesting class to play, while at the same time making it harder to play a really good Druid. If the class is more difficult to play well, the players who are excellent Druids will be the players who would be excellent regardless of classo. Hopefully that would appease everyone who says Druids are overpowered.

[Zeizel]

PS - I'd like to see shifted forms improve with either levels or use. I'm not quite sure how (they might already, for all I know), but I definately think that's something that'd be good for promoting a more creative approach to playing Druids, rather then the "shift dragon;maul mob" approach.

[Lone]

Hey, I'm a new Druid. I know this thread is old, but maybe someone can respond. I have two questions.

The first is that I rolled 11 17 18 16 13: is this good enough for a Dr,Cl,Ma,Ba?

The second is what is the significance of the description when i look at a mob that says "the janitor is a member of the human race" or "the bugbear is a non humanoid" etc?

Thanks