Oh look... Another Rebirth Topic...

[Gorka]

No, it's an exponential series... For example: n = (n-1) * 1.25

1: 50b
2: 62.5b
3: 78.125b
4: 97.65625b
5: 122.0703125b
6: 152.5878906b
7: 190.7348633b
8: 238.4185791b
9: 298.0232239b
10: 372.5290298b

For every 1B xp things should cost 1M coins, however with rebirth - to be fair should be 2B xp = 1M coins because rebirths got double xp and no extra coins, and coins are suckage.

[Gorka]

Here is a hypothetical rebirth shop... it needs a lot more work. I'll edit as people make suggestions and criticisms.

Rebirth Shop

*** Primary Stats (cumulative) ************************************************************** 2.5 * Current

+1 max_intelligence - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 max_strength - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 max_wisdom - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 max_dexterity - 125,000,000,000 experience and 62,500,000 coins
+1 max_constitution - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins

*** Secondary Stats (cumulative) ************************************************************ 2 * Current

-0.1 ac - 60,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 30,000,000 coins (n10 = 447b)
+1 damroll - 40,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 20,000,000 coins (n10 = 298b)
+1 hitroll - 30,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 15000,000 coins (n10 = 223b)
+1 hitpoints - 2,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.1) and 1,000,000 coins (n10 = 4.72b)
+1 mana - 2,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.1) and 1,000,000 coins (n10 = 4.72b)
+1 moves - 2,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.1) and 1,000,000 coins (n10 = 4.72b)
+1 spell saves (0 of 5) - x experience and x coins
+1 breath saves (0 of 5)- x experience and x coins
+1 petri saves (0 of 5) - x experience and x coins
+1 para saves (0 of 5) - x experience and x coins
+1 ma regen (0 of 10) - y experience and y coins
+1 hp regen (0 of 10) - y experience and y coins
+1 mv regen (0 of 10) - y experience and y coins

*** Permanent Skills (cumulative) *********************************************************** 2 * Current
+1 bonus weapon damage - 20,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 10,000,000 coins (n10 = 149b)
+1 bonus undead control - 16,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 8,000,000 coins (n10 = 119b)
+1 bonus hand damage - 16,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 8,000,000 coins (n10 = 119b)
+1 bonus damage reduction - 10,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 5,000,000 coins (n10 = 74.5b)
+1 bonus stab damage - 8,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 4,000,000 coins (n10 = 59.6b)
+1 bonus heal bonus - 6,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 3,000,000 coins (n10 = 44.7b)
+1 bonus spell damage - 6,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 3,000,000 coins (n10 = 44.7b)
+1 bonus charisma - 2,000,000,000 experience (ratio 1.25) and 1,000,000 coins (n10 = 14.9b)

*** Permanent Spells & Skills ***************************************************************
Visage - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Greater Fluidity - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Dark Cloak - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Improved Haste - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Natures Restoral - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Water Breathing - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Petrified Armor - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Resist Webs - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins
Avatar Blessing - 0 of 1 - x experience and x coins

I've based my numbers on the original avatar shop prices. I don't agree with some of the avatar shop prices because they don't make logical sense... for example, 62 mana buys a restoration which is 250hp+... so clearly mana is 4x more valuable than buying hp's... (there are many other questionable prices, MAX DEX vs AC, Stab Dam etc) but prices aren't for us to decide. I want people to buy into and agree to these ideas, and I'm confident Teker would implement it if given the all clear. We can argue ratio's and prices but clearly this is up to the imms, so we need to know when to back off. Already Breeze has had enough of our crap... and that's sad, because I find him quite reasonable, and clearly the players are at fault here if he got ticked off.

[Filk]

Seems cool. I agree, that ratios invalid. Some are very invalid. But overall idea seems shiny.

And maybe progression should be set in such way from zero values not for reborns only, but for usual shop as well. But coefficents should be tied to current average total values for the stat.

Like 100 mana is 100 bils atm. So M1+M2+..+M100 = 100 bil in new formula. First poinst will be quite cheap probably, but later if will be fixed up. I dont have time atm to count precise coefs values, will do it later.

[cyprimus]

Would think making the bonus cost drac... since you get drac from each rebirth.. would make sense.. maybe a balance or exchange of coins exp and drac?

[Gorka]

In back conversations, even with Breeze and Teker, I've mentioned the idea of buying stat points with drachma. I mostly like the idea but have two concerns...

1) Inevitably if you can gain something by two methods (xp OR drachma), one way usually works out easiest, and people tend to do whats easiest, so I suspect the so called "choice" in an economic sense will probably end up being illusionary anyway. I accumulated about 1830 drachma in a very short time after rebirth. I probably spent about 8 hours on it... 1830 is a lot, 8hrs of xp is nothing... it's really difficult to equate the 2 currencies and I see risks in doing so.

2) I prefer to make my own choices about how I do things... ie, I don't want to be compelled to use my drachma for such a thing, when I wanted to instead spend it on items in the drachma eq shop.

If multiple rebirths become a thing... and that is totally going to depend on the reward factors for doing so, eventually no one will have a use for drachma at some point. It's inevitable that sometime in the future by making rebirths a thing (and look I love the idea! thanks!) there is going to be collisions over the inadequacy of the drachma shops unless an outlet to spend drachma is found.

So what I am saying is this, don't compel players to spend drachma in some way... and secondly the conversation about this is perhaps more complex than we imagined.

Furthermore, if the proposed rebirth shop was implemented, it would be easier to purchase bonuses rather than rebirth for them, making the rebirth feature just for those who want the replay experience, which was the initial intention.

[Teron]

Alright, let's focus on the shop.

I like the idea of:
- a rebirth shop
- cumulative pricing in the shop (I even suggested it once)
- an updated avatar shop w/o rebirth (for when one doesn't need drachma).

But I think the coefficient needs to be lower. 140bil for the 10th weap dam seems excessive - that's 2 weeks of hardcore exp grouping, usually 3-4 weeks. If I need 800bil to get 50hps, that'll hardly be enticing to pursue. I'd like to buy 300-500hps before running into the amount of exp I can't reasonably obtain for 10hps to be worth it (10bil per 1hp, for example), but War or Arya might move 100-200hp further.

In the Imperial III MUD they had cumulatice pricing since level 1: you had to spend exp on stats and you gained levels from exp spent. The coefficient was much lower and it allowed for more nuanced picking of standard stats and longer progression (ie, the players could make minimal progress fast enough to keep the interest in the game). It also allowed players to build neat focused builds (ie, tanks, healers, damage dealers).

I agree that pricing on bonus stats and max stats needs to be somewhat high, but not high enough to immotivate players to buy them. Cost of hp/mana/hps could be lower to allow small dumps of exp/gold for minimal progress.

P.S. I can name 5 knowledgeable players in 10 seconds :p
P.P.S. If you have undead visage in the shop, add Glamour to it, because it can't be cast with visage on.

[Josiah]

I like the idea of an exponentially expensive avatar shop rather than the existing caps.

Unlimited progression is very appealing, ease of implementation is ideal, and messing with the exponential multiplier can keep it from spiraling out of control.

As for multiple rebirths, I think only access to the prime skills of secondary classes would be appealing enough to tempt most players to do such a thing.

[Filk]

Any immortal wanna comment idea of improving avatar shop with new bonuses and infinite expotential purchases?

[*teker*]

So what is the actual proposal I should be looking at? The rebirth shop post from 5/23? Or an extension to the avatar shop? Or both?

[Gorka]

Starting with my post on the 23rd is a good starting point. I didn't try very hard with the metrics, because it's not my job or place to set the value or amount of things. However if you want advice from me or other players on what constitutes fair pricing, I'd think about it more seriously and get back to you.

I think rebirth shop should be separate for rebirths only.

There is an argument to improve avatar shop as well... why the regens and saves are not in the original avatar shop, is perhaps an over site, but just my opinion. There are more perm spells that perhaps be in the rebirth shop as well... if that was actually on the table. I didn't list them all.

Thanks for taking a look at this too Teker, the rebirths will be very happy.

[Filk]

So what is the actual proposal I should be looking at? The rebirth shop post from 5/23? Or an extension to the avatar shop? Or both?

1. First of all, question is will be that improvement allowed by immortal council. If so, we could start working on exact rates and values

2. If speaking about improvements, i agree with Gorka. Its too separate things. One is adding missing stats and spells to current avatar shop. Second is adding another shop with exactly same stats in it, but with expotential exp and gold cost.

[*Breeze*]

you guys come up with the concept/proposal.
_exact details_ / formulas.


we (the immortals) will discuss it/adjust it/approve/disapprove/nerf/whatever
it requires.

i don't want Teker to work blindly for hours on something
that we may have to say no to. i know all too well
how that feels.

part of the discussion will be if Teker even wants to tackle doing the changes.

Also,
there is nothing missing from the avatar shop.
everything in there was decided on by Splork back
when i redid the shop as a level 43 immortal.
he said that's what he wanted there, so that's
what I added there.

[Filk]

we (the immortals) will discuss it/adjust it/approve/disapprove/nerf/whatever
it requires.

Thats the first question. Do you agree about the idea of infinite expotential avatar shop at all. Rates are subject to discuss, but it will take long probably and before doing that, its good to know, if overall idea is acceptable. Mostly there gonna be exactly the same stats as in current shop, plus bonus bonus stats (bonus spell dam, bonus heal, bonus hand dam etc).

Also,
there is nothing missing from the avatar shop.
everything in there was decided on by Splork back
when i redid the shop as a level 43 immortal.
he said that's what he wanted there, so that's
what I added there.

Some things might change over time. There are few missing stats there, like saves or ma/hp/mvregen.
Only Splork can say why he decided not to include them there.
And some spells could be added without breaking balance. Like fluidity, petrification armor, resist webs. Maybe 1-2 another.

[*Breeze*]

Thats the first question. Do you agree about the idea of infinite expotential avatar shop at all. Rates are subject to discuss, but it will take long probably and before doing that, its good to know, if overall idea is acceptable. Mostly there gonna be exactly the same stats as in current shop, plus bonus bonus stats (bonus spell dam, bonus heal, bonus hand dam etc).

* exponential ----^^^^^^^
i guarantee that if we were to make something like that,
we would have to come up with something for mobs too.
atm i am open to not just nixing the idea without hearing
about it.

Some things might change over time. There are few missing stats there, like saves or ma/hp/mvregen.
Only Splork can say why he decided not to include them there.
And some spells could be added without breaking balance. Like fluidity, petrification armor, resist webs. Maybe 1-2 another.

one thing that will probably never go in is Avatar Shadow (perma sanc + perma dark cloak)
so perma dark cloak is out...
havent really thought about the other perma_stuff we could add and how it would affect anything.

[Gorka]

Ok here is my Rebirth Shop proposal. Any PLAYER who decides to criticise my proposal WITHOUT providing their own proposal of equal objectivity and thinking... prepare for flame wars! I suspect that only Taron and Fluffy are capable of providing worthwhile comment if past experience is anything to go by. My post took several hours of careful calculations... and my facts don't care about your feelings. As my science teacher used to say "Be remembered as a builder, not a breaker." With that said... lets begin.

* I notice that Avatar shop concerned itself mostly with class related attributes. Hence it's my opinion that Rebirth shop should therefore concern itself more with Avatar attributes.
* A rule of thumb for rebirths is that 2b xp gains about 1m coins, hence I will use this to price my coin components.
* In general I believe that the prices in rebirth shop should equate to about 2.5 times that of avatar shop in comparison, as we currently get double xp, with .5 to justify our increased power.
* The following suggestion is based very very strongly on objective logic, based on current avatar shop prices being accepted as "objective truth."
* In the end I have capped all my purchases, and not allowed for infinite improvement, as I think the idea is too controversial to be accepted. However ratio pricing could still could be applied until the cap is reached, but in a more marginal rate at something like 1.05.

I think we should be able to purchase +1 MAX Stat more... priced at 2.5 times the price of the current avatar shop.

+1 of 1 MAX_INT - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 of 1 MAX_STR - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 of 1 MAX_WIS - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 of 1 MAX_DEX - 125,000,000,000 experience and 62,500,000 coins
+1 of 1 MAX_CON - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins

I think the next section is too controversial to allow infinite progression in. For example +1 Dam is worth 10x more to a thief than other classes. Hence I think a repeat of the avatar shop scheme is appropriate, because this section is most likely to create the problems. However we could apply ratio pricing just as a twist to things... starting at 2.5 times the avatar shop cost.

+1 of 3 HIT - 37,500,000,000 experience and 18,750,000 coins
+1 of 3 DAM - 50,000,000,000 experience and 25,000,000 coins
+1 of 3 AC - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins (Brought into line as being a proportion of the MAX_DEX cost, an error in avatar shop)
+1 of 100 HIT - 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 100 MANA - 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 100 MOVES - 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins

This section effects the regeneration speed of players and therefore speeds up the pace the game is played. I would like to see a 10% increase in regeneration rates for rebirths. The slowest regenning classo at avatar can still obtain 120ma regen... and 10% of that is about 10+ ma regen. Movement regen is similar, and hp regen almost doesn't even factor due to contemplation being as high as 400 hp per min. Hence I feel the economic viability of purchasing regen should end at about the 10% mark. Given avatar shop provided aegis for 50b xp, which is a saving to the player of 40 mana over 420secs, we can calcuate that this was a saving of the equivalent of 5.714 ma regen to the player. So it appears the game prices ma regen at approximately 10b per point for non-rebirths. So I have applied my 2.5 factor to arrive at the following prices. Given mana can be used to obtain moves and hp via refresh and restore, we can use the mana price to calculate the move and hp price. We could also apply a ratio here to make things get incrementally more expensive.

+1 of 10 MA Regen - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins
+3 of 30 MV Regen - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins (Refresh is 20 ma for 50mvs = 2.5x)
+4 of 40 HP Regen - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins (Restore is 62 ma for 250hp = 4.0x)

This section in my opinion is the best place to offer ratio pricing. For this section you need to break down how often the attribute is used... for example, weapon damage is used for each attack in a round of a fight (generally 5 attacks) however flail can only occur once per round. Hence weapon damage should be priced at 5x. So I applied a ratio to damages... Given weapon damage was priced at 10b in the avatar shop, and I want to apply my 2.5 ratio to the price... I can break it down and solve for X. X is also given to passive attributes based on how often they are used.

+1 of 25 BONUS_CIRCLE_DAMAGE (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_FLAIL DAMAGE (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_HAND DAMAGE (5x) - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_KICK DAMAGE (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_SPELL BONUS (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_STAB DAMAGE (.5x) - 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_WEAPON DAMAGE (5x) - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins
+1 of 25 BONUS_CHARISMA (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_DAMAGE_REDUCTION (5x) - 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins (Works out at the same cost as AC, as it should)
+1 of 25 BONUS_HEAL BONUS (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_SYS SHOCK (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 BONUS_UNDEAD CONTROL (1x) - 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins

This is a new section and is therefore on unknown ground. However calculations in the past showed me that 1 Spell Save was about the equivolent of 5 Spell Bonus. However according to the above chart this would make a Spell Save worth 25b which seems excessive... (Avatar shop had an excessive price for spell dam in the first place in my opinion) but okay, lets run with that. The other prices are scaled based on their importance to spell saves. In my opinion these prices, although based on logic... they should be cheaper.

+1 of 5 SAVES BREATH 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 SAVES PARALYZATION 5,000,000,000 experience and 2,500,000 coins
+1 of 5 SAVES PETRIFICATION 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 5 SAVES POISON 2,500,000,000 experience and 1,250,000 coins
+1 of 5 SAVES SPELL 25,000,000,000 experience and 12,500,000 coins

Given that most of the avatar shop spells were class spells, I believe rebirth shop spells should be avatar spells... Following the logic of Breeze's claim that the avatar shop was "complete" in the sense that everything that was going to be permitted was permitted... I haven't included water breathing or visage which I know would be popular. There is a case for adding the other resists that are available as well such as resist_acid and resist_electricity. The price for perm spells should be based on mana regen costs... for example, perm greater fludity saves 42 mana over 946 seconds, hence greater fludity is really the equivelent price of 2.6638 ma regen. Now this calculation is a silly notion... however it does objectively create a scale system to work out fair costs of perm spells relational to each other. If we price 1 ma regen at approximately 25b xp we can calculate fair approximate costs for perm spells.

greater fluidity 42 mana over 946sec = 2.6638 ma regen = 65b experience and 32,500,000 coins
resist webs 22 mana over 1015secs = 1.300 ma regen = 32.5b experience and 16,250,000 coins
mobility 15 mana over 2720secs = 0.330 ma regen = 8.5b experience and 4,250,000 coins
*grace 7 mana over 1536secs = 0.273 ma regen = 7b experience and 3,500,000 coins
rejuvenation 25 mana over 1812secs = 0.496 ma regen = 12.5b experience and 6,250,000 coins
petrified armor 20 mana over 1500secs = 0.800 ma regen = 20b experience and 10,000,000 coins
blessing of the avatar 45 mana over 3630secs = 0.743 ma regen = 18.5b experience and 9,250,000 coins
natures restoral 45 mana over 2020secs = 1.336 ma regen = 33b experience and 11,000,000 coins
improved haste 40 mana over 480secs = 5 ma regen = 125b experience and 62,500,000 coins

*Grace poses a problem as the spell it's self is the equivelent of 130b/65m if bought individually as saves. Grace is an incredibly worthwhile spell, and perhaps it's price should be set somewhere manually at the price of about 50m.